Curse

TGgold · Jul 30, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I've..ever come across a dervish I couldn't kill.
I don't think they're horribly unbalanced, I think they're just...new. To fix the CoP problem just have it say: Monk Enchantments instead of just Enchantments. That should fix most of the problems...(albeit making MoR a little harder to use...)

twicky_kid · Jul 30, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

No matter what we do the boon prot is going to get nerfed. Boon at 10 second recharge and CoP will be changed.

I think tweaks should be made very very slight. Their armor is horrible, no shield, on the frontlines at all times, energy hogs, and a low energy pool. Their sythes attack too slow to really kill anything on their own. The only real dmg dealers are the aoe enchantments. In RA/TA they are very powerfull. In GvG and HA not so good.

Solar_Takfar · Jul 30, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

you mean Dervish Enchantments, right?

Evilsod · Jul 30, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I think they seriously need to sort out the Avatars.
Balthazaars Avatar... +40 armour and 33% faster move speed, i would've thought Balthazaar would be increased ATTACk speed not move speed. Deal holy damage... right that bypasses absolutely all resistances bar the original AL and also utterly rapes necros in the wrong armour. Why not give it 20% armour penetration too and make it like Judges Insight on steroids?

Melandrus Avatar... Immunity to conditions and +200 health. Ok i get hte conditions bit, rangers inflict lots. But what the hell does +200 health have to do with rangers? The only ranger skill that does that is Fertile Season, and now they're making it seem like a speciality. This is where a faster move speed would make more sense, not on balthazaar.

Lyssa's Avatar... Increased damage on foes using skills and +10 energy. Fair enough about energy, and the extra damage against foes using skills makes sense, probably the most balanced 1.

Grenths Avatar... Removes 1 enchantment for each attack skill, deal cold damage. Sorry, Fingers of Chaos is a MONSTER ONLY SKILL.

Dwaynas Avatar... Gain health, lose a hex when using attack skills. Ok fair enough.

These avatars are insanely overpowered in comparison to other elites. 1. Most are enchantments/hexes so can be removed. Most have longer recharges so interrupting them actually makes a frigging difference. Things like Psychic Distraction. Insanely powerful interrupt, has a downside... wheres the downside to these?

FalconDance · Jul 30, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

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Offtopic: Anyone else get a kick out of seeing the Dervish spin and twirl while she attacked? I loved it!

Yep, but the pause for a moment of prayer at the death of each foe is both touching and a little annoyingly frustrating!

Gotta keep on that target button!

Arkantos · Jul 30, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

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Balthazaars Avatar... +40 armour and 33% faster move speed, i would've thought Balthazaar would be increased ATTACk speed not move speed. Deal holy damage... right that bypasses absolutely all resistances bar the original AL and also utterly rapes necros in the wrong armour. Why not give it 20% armour penetration too and make it like Judges Insight on steroids?

I agree, this avatar should of been 33% faster AS. I have no clue where you get holy damage from balthazar, but whatever.

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Melandrus Avatar... Immunity to conditions and +200 health. Ok i get hte conditions bit, rangers inflict lots. But what the hell does +200 health have to do with rangers? The only ranger skill that does that is Fertile Season, and now they're making it seem like a speciality. This is where a faster move speed would make more sense, not on balthazaar.

The +200 Health has to do with survival.

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Lyssa's Avatar... Increased damage on foes using skills and +10 energy. Fair enough about energy, and the extra damage against foes using skills makes sense, probably the most balanced 1.

I agree, this one is pretty balanced.

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Grenths Avatar... Removes 1 enchantment for each attack skill, deal cold damage. Sorry, Fingers of Chaos is a MONSTER ONLY SKILL.

It was either that or add life stealing damage.

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Dwaynas Avatar... Gain health, lose a hex when using attack skills. Ok fair enough.

Nothing really wrong with this one.

tomcruisejr · Jul 30, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

No changes. Making Dervishes weak defeats the purpose of adding a new class. we dont want "another warrior or assassin" class, do we?

Phrozen_ · Jul 30, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

I think they seriously need to sort out the Avatars.
Balthazaars Avatar... +40 armour and 33% faster move speed, i would've thought Balthazaar would be increased ATTACk speed not move speed. Deal holy damage... right that bypasses absolutely all resistances bar the original AL and also utterly rapes necros in the wrong armour. Why not give it 20% armour penetration too and make it like Judges Insight on steroids?

Melandrus Avatar... Immunity to conditions and +200 health. Ok i get hte conditions bit, rangers inflict lots. But what the hell does +200 health have to do with rangers? The only ranger skill that does that is Fertile Season, and now they're making it seem like a speciality. This is where a faster move speed would make more sense, not on balthazaar.

Lyssa's Avatar... Increased damage on foes using skills and +10 energy. Fair enough about energy, and the extra damage against foes using skills makes sense, probably the most balanced 1.

Grenths Avatar... Removes 1 enchantment for each attack skill, deal cold damage. Sorry, Fingers of Chaos is a MONSTER ONLY SKILL.

Dwaynas Avatar... Gain health, lose a hex when using attack skills. Ok fair enough.

These avatars are insanely overpowered in comparison to other elites. 1. Most are enchantments/hexes so can be removed. Most have longer recharges so interrupting them actually makes a frigging difference. Things like Psychic Distraction. Insanely powerful interrupt, has a downside... wheres the downside to these?

Well the downside to all of them is that they are disabled for 120seconds, which means they wont have it for nearly a minute. What i dont get is why these skills have a 5 second recharge i.e. even if you interupt the 2 second cast, they can try again in another 5 seconds - Make it a longer (10-20 seconds maybe?)

twicky_kid · Jul 30, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

You cannot remove an Elite Form. They are not enchantments. You cannot copy them with Mimic either.

They last for 1 minute in most cases with a 1 minute cool down. For that steep recharge I think they are fine. If you reduce them any more than that then they wouldn't be useable at all. All of them have a 2 second casting that SCREAMS "interrupt me."

Wars are for pressure and Balth avatar matches that. The running speed ensures you keep up with you target to keep adding on the dmg. You can get IAS from whirling charge. Giving someone IAS for a minute straight with no way to remove it....hhhmmm....does this sound familar? We don't want another IWAY.

Melandrus is for survival. The 200 hp and conditions makes this guy impossible to spike. Conditions can't be applied so no blind/weakness/cripple/ or degen condtions.

Grenth only works on attack skill. I expect to see this changed to sythe attacks only.

Dwayna is junk. Pious restoration is none elite and will do the job much better than this elite.

Lyssa I'm just unsure about. It adds dmg to only people casting spells and you get +10 energy. The 10 energy is really ignored because of Myst.

Lets not forget that these can ONLY be used by dervish primary. I think they are well balanced.

calien007 · Jul 30, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

there is no way they will nerf COP ok? If that skill is tweaked Boon Pro will become useless and weak. COP is like the center of Boon Prot build. I am so sick of people saying COP needs to be nert and stuff. If u don't play a monk then u will have no idea how important and must COP is to a monk!!!

twicky_kid · Jul 30, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

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Originally Posted by calien007

there is no way they will nerf COP ok? If that skill is tweaked Boon Pro will become useless and weak. COP is like the center of Boon Prot build. I am so sick of people saying COP needs to be nert and stuff. If u don't play a monk then u will have no idea how important and must COP is to a monk!!!

Boon was made a 10 recharge for the weekend during testing to prevent abuse from dervish's Myst. When nightfalls is released that will most likely go into a permanent change. That alone is going to be a big change that might make the sway to a 2 BL monk line.

You can change CoP to work as its intended to right now without making it abusable by dervishes. Example

5e 10 recharge (Divine favor)

Lose 1...8 enchantments. For each enchantment removed from you gain 6...80hp, remove 1 hex and condition.

Making that change will prevent its abuse from Dervishs while still being use able by Boon prots.

Evilsod · Jul 30, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

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They last for 1 minute in most cases with a 1 minute cool down. For that steep recharge I think they are fine. If you reduce them any more than that then they wouldn't be useable at all. All of them have a 2 second casting that SCREAMS "interrupt me."

Whats your point? a 60 second downtime of an insanely powerful elite is still unbalanced. There is NO bad side to these elites. It'd be like removing the 'take 2 damage for each point of energy' or the 'Causes exhaustion' from Ether Prodigy. The 2 second cast time screams 'interrupt me', the 5 second recharge and limitless energy from a boon prot screams 'why bother!'.

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Wars are for pressure and Balth avatar matches that. The running speed ensures you keep up with you target to keep adding on the dmg. You can get IAS from whirling charge. Giving someone IAS for a minute straight with no way to remove it....hhhmmm....does this sound familar? We don't want another IWAY.

So giving something 33% faster run speed with no way to remove it is perfectly alright now is it? This is already worse than IWAY. Whats the next step, Ranger spirit spammers with Muddy Terrain? Sorry but 33% faster attack speed, +40 armour and holy damage is not a balanced elite. 3 pros, 0 cons.

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Melandrus is for survival. The 200 hp and conditions makes this guy impossible to spike. Conditions can't be applied so no blind/weakness/cripple/ or degen condtions.

I see your point i guess. But i still fail to see why this doesn't have 33% faster move speed instead of +200 health. Even just giving them evasion makes more sense.

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Grenth only works on attack skill. I expect to see this changed to sythe attacks only.

Its still ridiculously strong. Considering that you could use the double swing skill and remove 2 from all foes nearby in 1 attack. Anet just suck at balancing ANYTHING to do with enchantment removal.

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Dwayna is junk. Pious restoration is none elite and will do the job much better than this elite.

Its still a balanced elite. Compared to the rest that are overpowered. Perhaps put the +200 health on this 1 instead.

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Lyssa I'm just unsure about. It adds dmg to only people casting spells and you get +10 energy. The 10 energy is really ignored because of Myst.

The extra energy is negated a bit by mysticism i agree. But its still a fairer elite than the others. Its damage to 'skills', not specifically spells. Catch a warrior casting Healing Signet he's gonna be hurting.

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Lets not forget that these can ONLY be used by dervish primary. I think they are well balanced.

So why's that make them balanced? Oath Shot can only be used by ranger primary. Trappers Focus can only be used by ranger primary. Elemental Attunement is alot less effective without ele primary. The majority of necro skills can only be effectively used by a necro due to high cost reduced by Soul Reaping.

kvndoom · Jul 30, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I joined the dark side today, just for the heck of it...

After about 30 wins I stopped because it was so easy it was boring. I'd rather work for my glad points. People were really ticked off about losing that way too. That's also one of the reasons I stopped. I'll be very glad when this event is over. I miss normal Guild Wars.

Mysterial · Jul 30, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

If you think changing Contemplation of Purity will change anything, you haven't tried running Mystic Sandstorm. Besides that, what are you going to do, change every skill with "Lose all Enchantments" on it?

The only thing wrong with Dervish damage right now is the holy spells - they ignore armor but have the exact same costs as similar Dervish spells that hit armor. Actually, because of that I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's an unintentional oversight and the holy spells are actually supposed to hit armor. It doesn't make sense otherwise. Why would I ever take something like Staggering Force when I can take Heart of Holy Flame which does almost exactly the same thing for the same cost/time/recharge but ignores armor?

Quid Pro Quo · Jul 30, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

Balthazaars Avatar... +40 armour and 33% faster move speed, i would've thought Balthazaar would be increased ATTACk speed not move speed. Deal holy damage...

Have you ever played a warrior? First off there are runners which is the most annoying thing a warrior can deal with. I think it is correct to increase their run speed. The armor is obvious and the holy damage is because most warriors are like paladins.

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Melandrus Avatar... Immunity to conditions and +200 health. Ok i get hte conditions bit, rangers inflict lots. But what the hell does +200 health have to do with rangers? The only ranger skill that does that is Fertile Season, and now they're making it seem like a speciality. This is where a faster move speed would make more sense, not on balthazaar.

Well like someone else said its all about survival.

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These avatars are insanely overpowered in comparison to other elites. 1. Most are enchantments/hexes so can be removed. Most have longer recharges so interrupting them actually makes a frigging difference. Things like Psychic Distraction. Insanely powerful interrupt, has a downside... wheres the downside to these?

Lets take, for example, balthazar. You transform into this god of battle and charge into a huge group of enemies. They are all focusing on you but your the god of battle! This is - *POOF* Normal mortal *Splat* dead. Then even if your resurrected the chances of that form being any use in the future of this battle is little to none unless its a friggin long battle.

The biggest problem of the avatars comes from when more then about 4 Dervisih are on the team which is why I think Dervish powers should become weaker when more then 4 Dervish are on the team. When all those Dervish transform at the same time there is no one to target. Everyone is a god.

If you nerf Dervish you create the problem of basically destroying any chance for a casual gamer to play them since they already require a lot of skill to play and you hurt them in PvE a lot.

fb2000 · Jul 30, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

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Originally Posted by twicky_kid

In RA/TA they are very powerfull. In GvG and HA not so good.

as soon as i read "HA not so good" I stopped reading

if you havent seen what d/mos made of HA this weekend, plz refrain from commenting on it

sorry for my offending tone, its just that im like very annoyed at dervishes :P

Former Ruling · Jul 30, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

The Grenth Avatar is not overpowered liek the guy is thinking...if Anything it is the worst one for this weekend.

Removing Enchantments has flipflopped with the release of the Dervish...Removing Enchantments on the wrong target can HELP the other team now...

HolyHawk · Jul 30, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I think the point remains at their ability to do most things alone, while some of the core classes are going to turn into disposable choices. I'm fine if they do some "nerfing" on the dervish and they still remain strong, as long as they come up with better skills for the core professions as well. Also, the avatars seems ok, except for balthazar and maybe grenth. Immunity to conditions is something strong already, not sure if the 200 hp boost is necessary.

Phades · Jul 30, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

Whats your point? a 60 second downtime of an insanely powerful elite is still unbalanced. There is NO bad side to these elites. It'd be like removing the 'take 2 damage for each point of energy' or the 'Causes exhaustion' from Ether Prodigy. The 2 second cast time screams 'interrupt me', the 5 second recharge and limitless energy from a boon prot screams 'why bother!'.

Not quite, that just makes it almost as good as expertise.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

So giving something 33% faster run speed with no way to remove it is perfectly alright now is it? This is already worse than IWAY. Whats the next step, Ranger spirit spammers with Muddy Terrain? Sorry but 33% faster attack speed, +40 armour and holy damage is not a balanced elite. 3 pros, 0 cons.

The holy physical damage is neutral considering how easy it is to change what damage they are causing. You have other skills like grenth's fingers that do the same and whatever is on top or the most frequently repeated seems to take precidence. The run speed boost is really strong, but a IAS would be even worse since they could take one of the numerous run speed boosts from a number of different sources and make a far more potent setup. I would expect a potentcy change, instead of a duration or type change. For example, a 10-20% run speed boost instead of 33%, which would put other run speed boosts ahead of it in terms of raw speed allowing for options to kite.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

I see your point i guess. But i still fail to see why this doesn't have 33% faster move speed instead of +200 health. Even just giving them evasion makes more sense.

Giving 1 form both immunity to cripple and a run speed boost would be the most overpowered thing in existance. The profession is nearly immune to hexes as it is without outside support.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

Its still ridiculously strong. Considering that you could use the double swing skill and remove 2 from all foes nearby in 1 attack. Anet just suck at balancing ANYTHING to do with enchantment removal.

You could still do that with order of apostasy, yet it still exists.

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Originally Posted by Evilsod

The extra energy is negated a bit by mysticism i agree. But its still a fairer elite than the others. Its damage to 'skills', not specifically spells. Catch a warrior casting Healing Signet he's gonna be hurting.

You have a better chance catching a troll ungent than a healing sig, but if its to the point where the warrior must rely upon the healing sig against a dervish, its already too late.

Evilsod · Jul 30, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

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Not quite, that just makes it almost as good as expertise.

Whats so great about Expertise? All rangers can do is spam other professions energy skills alot more so than they can. They still lose all other abilities that profession gets. Bunny Thumpers are strong because of knockdown. Packhunters are strong from absolute limitless energy. Ranger/Dervish? Won't happen, not enough regen for enchantments, the scythe attacks are practically not getting a look in, its just Crippling Sweep and enchantments. Expertise is just the fighters version of Fast Casting.

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The holy physical damage is neutral considering how easy it is to change what damage they are causing. You have other skills like grenth's fingers that do the same and whatever is on top or the most frequently repeated seems to take precidence. The run speed boost is really strong, but a IAS would be even worse since they could take one of the numerous run speed boosts from a number of different sources and make a far more potent setup. I would expect a potentcy change, instead of a duration or type change. For example, a 10-20% run speed boost instead of 33%, which would put other run speed boosts ahead of it in terms of raw speed allowing for options to kite.

Lets face it... they can't balance these skills. They'll either be shit, or overpowered. They've screwed themselves here badly.

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Giving 1 form both immunity to cripple and a run speed boost would be the most overpowered thing in existance. The profession is nearly immune to hexes as it is without outside support.

Oh right so giving 1 profession both the highest sustained DPS AND the highest armour isn't overpowered either? If your in a Well of Profane the D/Mos can't do a thing. Beyond swing there scythes, if you spread out enough they'll be doing naff all.

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You could still do that with order of apostasy, yet it still exists.

Order of Apostasy sacrifices life when 1 is removed. I fail to see a bad side of this 1 beyond the conditional 'attack SKILLS'.

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You have a better chance catching a troll ungent than a healing sig, but if its to the point where the warrior must rely upon the healing sig against a dervish, its already too late.

Yeah but Unguent doesn't have a -40 AL penalty. And the majority of rangers bring Whirling Defences so theres a good chance they wouldn't hit you anyway.